Cinescussion - Episode 18 - The Batman (2022) & The Entire Franchise

The moment has arrived, and Batman has returned...or...The Batman is here? Never mind. We saw Matt Reeves' The Batman (2022) this weekend and we decided to take a spoiler free deep dive into the film for the first few minutes and then a spoiler filled, nerdy conversation emerges shortly after but don't worry, we give a verbal warning once the spoilers begin for those of you that have not seen the film yet. After discussing The Batman we actually branch off into the entire live action batman film franchise and talk about what we love and what we...question about those films. Grab some snacks and maybe some coffee before joining us as we tumble down the Batman hole.

Topics: 
The Batman (2022), Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, Batman: Mask of The Phantasm, Matt Reeves, Christopher Nolan, Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher, Robert Pattinson, Paul Dano, Collin Farrell, Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, George Clooney, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Chris O' Donnell, Alicia Silverstone, Uma Thurman, Jim Carrey, Tommy Lee Jones, Cilian Murphy, Heath Ledger, Tom Hardy, Andy Serkis, Michael Cain, Michael Gough, Jack Nicholson, Michelle Pfifer, Danny Devito, and Zoe Kravitz

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Transcript

(This was transcribed by a third-party application and may not be 100% accurate)

0:13  
Hello everyone, this is Dylan.

0:14  
And this is fortune also known as a restless mind on YouTube.

0:18  
And welcome to episode 18 of sin discussion where we will be discussing the Batman the new Matt Reeves 2022 film that just came out a few days ago as well as Batman over the years and all the different interpretations that we've seen of him,

0:33  
at least at least all of the live action ones. I would actually when I make my Batman list, I actually was forced because of how good it was to include Batman Mask of the Phantasm because I think that's an amazing movie.

0:45  
Man, you open a can of worms with no other.

0:49  
I haven't. I haven't seen the other animated ones. Massive Phantasm connects directly to the 90s You know, RTV cartoon, which I still like one of my favorites. And it was like one of my favorite interpretations of the Joker. And that movie was just so good. I feel like even if you hadn't seen the series, it's just a great movie. And it's told well, just like a live action film, it's just it's just really great. And it's very mature, too, which is awesome. Yeah,

1:13  
I totally agree. That movie is the freakin best man.

1:15  
I can see so good. Yeah, I couldn't help it. I had to like what I didn't it felt wrong.

1:21  
Yeah, yeah. Well, man, uh, let's start with the Batman The 2022 one with Robert Pattinson, the Riddler just say Robert batten Robert battens and yeah I love the unrecognizable Colin Farrell Pang.

1:39  
Oh my god. Yes, bro. Like, yeah,

1:43  
Zoe Kravitz is Catwoman. Yeah, Jeffrey writes James Gordon. Yeah, well, Dan was Riddler. And you know, I'm just going to start with a gripe.

1:52  
And then John Turturro is in this film.

1:55  
I love John to taro and John, I have one gripe and it's not what the casting Well, I have more than one gripe, but the gripe that comes to mind is oh circus was cast in this movie as Alfred. And I think that's fantastic. But if you're gonna cast Andy Serkis give him something to work with. He just didn't I know.

2:14  
He doesn't really Yeah, he's no he's just essentially be caring adults. Like there's nothing

2:21  
he did great. I just wanted more. Yeah, that's a compliment.

2:23  
If you want the truth, I kind of felt similar to Zoe Kravitz as Catwoman like I think she was solid but I think the way the characters written you basically know she's Catwoman because her name is Selena Kyle, but I feel like you could have said she was anybody. Like you could have said she was a lot of different people really like to me,

2:38  
Well, why don't we have varying degrees of enjoyment of this? I feel like I might like it a little higher on the scale. I think what I gave it,

2:47  
I gave it a very strong be I liked it. So I gave her I wrote a review on this that was spoiler free. So what I'm going to do is just you guys know, we're going to go into this everything we're talking about right now is spoiler free for the next few minutes, but then we're going to get into spoilers after that. We will give you a verbal warning when the spoilers the spoilers begin. So at that point, if you want to pause the show, to see the movie and then come back, you're totally welcome to Okay, so right now this is spoiler free. So overall, I gave them a film like a strong be, I thought it was very good movie. It is a bit on the long side, which I'm typically fine with. I personally felt like without spoiling anything, essentially, there are like four story arcs in this film. And I feel like one of them is okay. But it's kind of unnecessary. And for the emotional impact it's supposed to have on a specific character, I felt like it needed to be fleshed out more to be really bad, impactful, but it really wasn't. So it kind of just comes on. Like as like this reveal. And then a character's just disappeared from the movie just as pointlessly as to me that arc was to some extent, like it's not a pointless arc, but it just it's not super important in this story. And I feel like if you're going to spread the story into all of these arcs, that one is the least necessary and you could have saved it for later or just done it differently. That's just my opinion. I did I did like the movie though. I just feel like you could have shaved 2530 minutes out of it and it would have felt a bit more succinct and it would have flowed a bit better. Have you done some story changes? I thought that the direction in terms of cinematography and shortlist was pretty magnificent. Um, I think that Matt Reeves has a very strong point of view, which I like I like when a director actually has a perspective like whether you like it or not, I I'm always disappointed when someone when someone's a good director, but a film just feels like a product. It just feels like a movie, but you don't really feel like there's any personality there. I don't think you can say that about Matt Reeves, especially. And if he felt that way in the past, I don't think you can this time around. There's there's some really unique stuff going on in this film. And the cinematographer worked really, really well with him. I think that they are a good pair and they should definitely do this again. cinematographers name is Greg Fraser. And then when I looked into him of course he's a legend. I mean, he did what he liked me if you're not the way it looked was gorgeous. He did Star Wars Rogue One he did he just shot dune. He's shooting dune two. Yeah. Yeah, he worked on the Mandalorian. Like, like some some films that have some really great cinematography. So he, he definitely knows this stuff. And working with Matt Reeves, it seems like was a great combo. Because, again, no spoilers. But there is a car chase scene in this film that is one of the best I've seen in at least the last five or six years. It's very, very good. It essentially uses about four perspectives. And what's interesting is, they're all perspectives I really like in car chases, but typically when they're used, they're used as gimmicks. And it's like for a few moments. And that's it. This is kind of all shot from these four perspectives. So it makes it really interesting. And it leads to some really cool candy shots that are very unique. So I love that. The other thing that was super shocking for me, I did not expect to love Colin Farrell as the the penguin as much as I did. I genuinely think that if no one had told anybody that this was Colin Farrell, I don't think a single person would know like, I really don't, I don't think anybody would know without being told. He's got on a fat suit. He's got all this makeup. He looks like he's in his, you know, maybe his 50s. And his accent is great. His character is fantastic. He's very grounded. But then he has moments where he's really over the top. But it usually really works in those scenes and actually lends to some of the few comedic moments in the film. I would say there's a comedic moment with him. That's one of my favorite scenes. And then the other comedic moment in the film is a scene between Batman and Commissioner Gordon. And I don't want to say exactly what because it's a very interesting scene, but it's really funny. There are some news outlets that showed that clip. But the funny thing is, when they show the clip, it's kind of pointless because you don't understand why it's happening. It just looks weird. But when you have context, it's actually really funny. Robert Pattinson was good. I liked him as Batman, I would just say my only issue is that it's nothing with him. It's just writing wise, his character is very one note throughout the film. So it doesn't really give him a lot of room to flex any kind of range with anything, but, but it kind of seems like that's kind of how the story was. So that kind of makes sense. I would say this, this is definitely a Batman film. I think Bruce Wayne probably doesn't show up a whole lot. Not as much as you'd expect. It's very much a Batman film.

7:16  
The I, I really was impressed with the score as well, the score, because I feel like this is like yet a nother Batman film, right. And it must get really hard to do a new score all the time. But the score is actually quite good. Like it's one of those scores that it's good enough that I feel like there will probably be people that are listening to the soundtrack after this movie. You know what I mean? And it's Michael, Mike, Michael, Jia Chino, I think is his name. And he's kind of he's another legend. So it doesn't surprise me. But he came up with some really cool stuff. And for those of you that are Nirvana and Nirvana fans, it is used interestingly, throughout the film that wasn't just a trailer tease, which is really cool. Um, and I would say one other. So like, basically, the main negatives I have, and they're not really they're not necessarily bad. They're more. I think I'm a review. I called them questionable. Right. So one of them was a story element, an arc that I don't really feel like necessarily needs to be in the film. And I feel like or at least if it is, I think it should have been written a different way that really would have saved time. And it actually could have been more interesting in my opinion. But I would say the Riddler story arc is probably one of the highlights of the film like and where it goes. I think that was really cool. I think Paul Danna is a great choice for the Riddler. My main issue is, I felt like there were some scenes where I absolutely loved him. And then there were some scenes where I was kind of like, you know, like, the way he did something was like, like, in that come that also comes down more to direction. I mean, I think you also want to let the actor do their thing. But I think there are some things as a director, I would have critiqued a little bit or you know, shaped a bit. I also feel like his character needed a little bit of I expected a little bit of like OCD like behavior along with that character, which kind of wasn't present anywhere really, for the most part. In my opinion. I mean, other people might see it, I didn't so like I feel like the interpretation of the rigid or the Riddler is definitely original. And I think Paul Dano is a perfect choice. I just would have critiqued a couple things. And I wasn't a huge fan of the outfit. The outfit didn't. Like I don't necessarily want anything over the top flamboyant or anything. It's just more that outfit doesn't seem like it says Riddler in any way whatsoever. So so that that was kind of like, yeah, and then the only other thing is I think that so Kravitz was solid as Catwoman but as I said, I may have told you before I feel like the character is Selena Kyle, but it's like but there's nothing else about the character that feels very Catwoman aside from like, the basic stuff they do lately, like I kind of miss like even if you don't go to over the top I kind of miss like the Michelle Pfeiffer where like, there's an arc that seems like Catwoman even if you want to grounded in reality, I kind of want the character to feel like Catwoman. You know, I mean, even in Catwoman, she felt like Catwoman was just a terrible film even though Halle Berry looked fantastic. It was just a terrible film. But like at least it was like a Catwoman story like, and I think you spoke on this, it seems like lately when they try to do these graduate films, she's almost like, there for Batman only rather than being like, a full kind of fleshed out. Yeah, sometimes.

10:20  
What we were talking about yesterday was, you know, we kind of shared our thoughts a little bit on the film and Catwoman in pretty much all the Batman Mita media I've seen lately. I don't read the comic books, but the movies and the video games, they almost use Catwoman as a plot device to give Batman away out into a normal life. It's not like they kind of juxtapose that with a little bit of like anti heroism or villainy, you know what I mean? Yeah. But going back to like, we'll get to a later but I rewatched Batman Returns and it's there has been a change from like, she is a full fledged villain, to yeah, there's a relationship here. And she's kind of like that potential way out if he would just take it.

11:00  
Yeah, yeah. And it seems like they did something similar with Anne Hathaway, who I think Anne Hathaway is a fantastic actress. I think she was wonderful. But but but again, the character was very toned down as a cat woman in that film, you know what I mean? And I kind of wish wish that if you're going to go that way with Batman, go that way with Catwoman. You know, I want a little bit more Catwoman Enos? If that makes sense, you know, yeah. But ultimately, I still think it's a good film. I think that it's worth seeing, I would recommend it and the film does offer something unique to the Batman franchise. without spoilers. All I'll say is that, we also discussed this, a lot of Batman films tend to be villain centric. And they tend to also focus on a war over ideology, to some extent, which I'm for I love philosophy and stuff. So that's all in my alley. But what this film does do differently in uniquely and I won't spoil it, I'll just say it does have an arc for Batman, slash Bruce Wayne kind of for once. That actually light, light, light, light, light, kind of a full arc in a movie, it's not complete, but it feels like a full movie arc for the character that I don't typically see in a lot of these films. So that is actually a quite unique, you know, so I would say, for someone that wants the Batman that feels like a thriller, like seven or the Zodiac or something like that, but you actually get to see him being a detective. You know what I mean? And you get to see the early years of Batman and him actually have a bit more of an arc. If those are the things you're looking for. I think you're gonna be really happy with this film, because it it does at least do something unique in that regard. And Matt Reeves world is very grounded. It's very beautiful. And it's very captivating. So

12:30  
nice. Yeah. Okay. I'm excited, man. I agree with what a lot of what you said, but I think it's been a while. I have some disagreements. I mean, that like, I don't wait, because we haven't agreed on a movie. Yeah,

12:41  
we typically agree on most things. Yeah. Yeah. So

12:43  
a little bit of context to me going into watching this movie. If any of you listened to the last podcast, I was like, fortune, man. I'm tired of these like dark, like jewelry movies. Can we just talk about something sunny and fun. I know. I know. And we were talking about doing the Studio Ghibli Miyazaki episode, but we're like, shit, man, we got to talk about Batman like that. So I was like, All right, we got to organize for it. I'm like, great. Another dark, gritty Batman? Like, can we get something that's not anyway? So I go in three hours of like, grungy dark Batman. Yeah. And I was surprised that I really loved it. Um, I would say this movie felt a lot like Joker to me. And I don't mean that. I mean that in some positive ways, but actually mean that and one, probably my biggest critique, this movie is as much seven as that movie is taxi driver. And I'm Yeah, as young budding when it comes to originality, but it doesn't affect you know, it doesn't affect my kind of score consideration that much, because the Dark Knight is just heat. You know what I mean? Like, what kind of works? You know what I mean? Like, it really works.

13:55  
Well, I think there are scenes that are hitting the dark night.

13:59  
Yes. Yeah. Overall, like Chase and kind of like, yeah, you know, for sure. But what I mean is this movie was three hours long and, and the lighting is Hamlet, Emmeline family. Yeah, one of our disagreements is I actually wanted to increase the runtime, I'm gonna get my my dings and kind of my critiques out of the way. Is that a lot more positive to say? Sure. I think this movie moved too quickly. And I think it could have used an extra 30 minutes. A couple examples of that is there's a scene where Batman gets significantly injured, it seems. And the next scene he's standing all ready to take on the world again.

14:36  
We were literally laughing about it. We were like, he's just, he's pretending he's fine.

14:41  
There's another scene where a huge like motivation shattering revelation comes and you're like, oh, man, this is gonna change everything. And the very next scene, it gets completely next and I was like, you probably could use the 1520 minutes right there. And there was just a few a few problem A couple other moments, but those were the most egregious ones where I'm like, Man, this movie is moving along like it's got to go. Um, and I think it could have benefited from another half hour that being said three and a half hour Batman movie I don't know. But I that's my that's why I'm too long technically. Yeah, that's

15:15  
why I opted to cut rather than extend because extending could fix it but I don't know like Yeah, it feels like a gamble.

15:21  
When it comes to visuals and tones of this movie I wasn't excited for another like gritty, realistic Batman movie. I was like, Look, man, like, we're living in a world where Nolan's Batman trilogy exists and right now pretty much everything after that is, it's a footnote, like it's gonna be compared to Nolan's thing. Yeah, so it's like, why are you going the gritty realistic route when you have an opportunity to make it so much more different? Well, the thing is, they did make it so much more different than I didn't expect that because this is somewhat of a gritty realistic Batman movie. It treats its characters as gritty, grounded and realistic and grungy. But it treats his world very stylistically and feels like kind of a comic book or video game Gotham it like we were talking about I was like, Man, this feels like a mix of Batman Begins and Blade Runner. Like he's just always pouring rain it's absolutely disgusting all the time.

16:11  
It's like kind of Arkham Asylum me to be honest, like the game

16:15  
a little Arkansas. Yeah, it's very like Gothic like you look in this house and you're like, Man, there you dry?

16:20  
Yeah. Which is how like kind of the Tim Burton warns where I think we're talking about Yeah, Tim Burton room

16:26  
for that, like really vibrant, and not vibrant. But like, dreamy industrial, like dirty Gotham.

16:33  
I think Gothics a good way to put it to very Yeah, yeah. Um,

16:36  
but I absolutely loved the world. And along with that, I thought the visuals in this movie, I don't want to play the compare game because we all know that Nolan's movies are gorgeous, too. But for me, this was my favorite looking Batman movie that I've ever seen. Like it's really deep, deep, like dark blacks all the time. But then it has these like really warm oranges in the background that make everything pop, whether it's day or night. Compare that with like all the rain, it's like the rainiest movie I've ever seen. I swear. And you just get these like really, really, really beautiful shots. It's true. Another thing that I want to praise, character introductions in this movie are the truth. Like they introduced Batman in this movie and they do that, you know, like Neo Noir. Like this city is a cesspool kind of like thing. And he's talking about like, I've been doing this for two years and crimes up what am I doing? It's like him writing in his diary in his head. No,

17:30  
that's cool. I love character narration to like I love to death with what's his name and watchmen to horshack

17:36  
I love that. Yeah. Which is based on Batman. So.

17:39  
Oh, is he really? Yes, I character based off that. I did not know that. That's awesome.

17:42  
Um, so it reminded me of horshack Which reminds me of Batman and it worked. And also, there were I think two or three character introductions that blew me away in this movie. I love Batman's introduction. It introduces him as the symbol of fear and vengeance was he should be and like their minds are just like pure darkness where people are looking in the shadows and he might be there and they're freaking out. I was like, Ooh, this is great.

18:06  
Yeah, that should be he should be feared like a legend like an urban.

18:09  
Yeah. gave me chills the other intro that gave me chills. The introduction of the Batmobile in this movie was phenomenal. Oh,

18:21  
consider what it is. You can't hate it. I don't think Yeah.

18:24  
And also the introduction of the Riddler in this movie I absolutely loved which I'll get a little more into in just a second. But just the character introductions in this movie, loved it. By extension, I really loved all the characters. I do agree with you. I think that you know, based on the story, there wasn't a whole lot of room for Bruce Wayne. And I think that it didn't feel like there was any really separation between Batman and Bruce Wayne in this movie. But yeah, it makes sense. Because in the beginning, he's explaining that, like, his days are running in together. He's up all night. He's like keeping a journal to try to like keep everything in place. And like he doesn't have time for Bruce Wayne. So I mean, exactly. Like for the sake of a three hour runtime. It would have been nice to have a little bit of mix, but I didn't mind it. I was like, yes, like a Batman movie. Exactly.

19:10  
Very Batman centric.

19:11  
Yep. The action. I think it's safe to say best action any Batman movie, right? Like it was a hand to hand combat. For him hand combat, I would say like him. Well. Ben Affleck Ben Affleck was great, too.

19:26  
Now I was gonna say even though I don't like the movie, I feel like the way Batman fought in the warehouse scene is everything I would want from a Batman Yeah. And honestly from what I could see of the fight choreography in Batman Begins I almost got the awesome ninja Batman, but if they just they cut so much yeah, what's happening which is like one of my only gripes about that movie. It's almost perfect. Right? Perfect.

19:48  
And also the what was I gonna say? You mentioned the score. Phenomenal, especially for them to recreate another new Batman score. They they still have ideas In the music is for sure. And lastly, I really I really liked Paul Daniels Riddler a lot, I think, not to, not to his I guess it would fall on him a little bit. But there was a little bit of dark night Joker in there, especially when it came to the videotapes. It felt reminiscent of other things a lot of the time where I was like, I could have used a little more uniqueness even to the reveal. Well, I'll get into that spoil. Yeah,

20:27  
that was my my favorite scene was the the scene from the trailer with the coffee cup. I'll just say like, as far as the way behaviors going with him. I loved that. Like that's the sinister kind of that's what I wanted more of. Actually, I just felt like when that spoilers I can't Okay, yeah, well,

20:46  
we'll get Yeah, but my favorite part of this movie is I'm always concerned when it comes to a three hour runtime is because and this is specific for superhero movies. I'm always concerned when it comes along superhero movies, because they gotta have a third act. And superhero movies are infamous for having a terrible third act.

21:03  
You're not wrong, you know. So

21:05  
that's where I was like, Man three out of the air we're gonna have like a huge beat him up at the end. The I thought the third act this movie was phenomenal. The third act was actually great. I liked what it turned into the resolutions of characters the way everything came full circle for Batman's character arc, the the action in the end of the movie, and eventually what it turns into, like, this isn't spoilers, either. You know, the third act becomes like a bit of a disaster movie, and I'm not gonna say hi, but I fucking love Zastrow.

21:33  
It shows. It shows a clip of it in the trailer, though. So like it does. But they don't know that. Yeah,

21:39  
yeah. Um, so I would say I would get it. I don't wanna get too deep into rankings. But I would say, this is up there for me with a dark night Mask of the Phantasm as like the Batman movies that I will watch and watch and watch and watch. And I really hope that there's a director's cut that adds an extra 20 minutes. 25 Maybe,

22:01  
honestly, I might just cut more, we'll see. Because like, because when I say it's a B, it's a strong movie. I liked it. I probably say it's, I think on my list. I put it in the top four, because it's like, I think it goes the Dark Knight Batman Begins mask the Phantasm and then this movie. Yeah. And this movie is like at the top of beat here, which I really like. So I do like it, you know? Just yeah. And like I said, I think I said even my gripes there. None of them are bad. They're just more like questionable to me. Like, you know, like, so like, like, I definitely want to see it again. Yeah, yes, yes. I could just see I could just see little tweaks that I think would have just made for a better story. And they're also without spoilers. I can't. Yeah, they're just moment. What can we get into spoilers now? I don't know.

22:45  
Yeah, I think I think so. Yeah. I don't know if I'd give it I didn't really have a grade for it. But I guess I would give it a you know, I guess I'd give it an A Yeah. Yeah. So um, I highly recommend it from both of us. Especially surprisingly, highly recommended for me, because I feel like I'm always coming down on superhero movies. So this one really? No, no, yes. Yeah.

23:03  
And the funny thing is, I was the one that I was kind of like you I was kind of like, even though I like Matt Reeves. It's another Batman movie. I was kind of expecting like a C even though I knew I was involved. So even for it being a B for me, I liked it. You know, I didn't like it. So cool. So yeah, I definitely recommend it.

23:23  
Sweet. All right, now we're gonna get into some spoilers and talking about we don't really want to talk about

23:28  
Okay, so as of right now, everybody, these are now spoilers for the Batman 2022. So if you have not seen yet, pause here, check it out, and then come back and listen to the rest of us. Hopefully you do come back. We will miss you. But I just want to give you a heads up so that we don't spoil anything cuz we know it did just come out. Okay. Yep, absolutely. And it begins now. All right. So

23:48  
I know I feel like you got some you want to get out. I'm gonna let you just one thing

23:53  
that bothered me was writing wise with the Riddler. So towards the end in the interrogation room, which clearly was like an homage to the Joker scene, which is fine. Again, like a lot of blueprint. blueprinting like you said, there's a lot of, there's a lot of Dark Knight blueprinting there's a lot of seven. And then I would argue there's also a lot of Zodiac blueprinting to some extent with the way the character is written and designed, not necessarily the way it's filmed. The way it's filmed is very much seven in The Dark Knight to some extent. But my own one of my main gripes is I find that like there are things he says in his reveal that make it seem like you know, he always expected Batman to be here because he felt like this partnership together. Yes, there were there were things that he did earlier in the film that could have literally killed that just doesn't seem writing wise. It just seems like a huge misstep in terms of you could have easily for instance, just written the scene with the guy and with the bomb differently. It wouldn't be hard to change a few things like like that almost makes him seem like he's this genius. That's really stupid. Sometimes. It's like, it's like you can't say that and then have a note for Batman. So he's right next to someone that might explode and does explode and then Batman's only alive because let's be fair, the movie says he is, you know, like, it's like, it's like, you can't do that. And then make me believe that this guy's a genius, the whole movie. It's like, you've been so meticulous, but that it just it doesn't seem like you cared if Batman lived or die, but now you're gonna act like this was always the plan and and we're, you know we're the same until you know, he realizes they're not and then he's disappointed which was the part of his performance that I did not like like I'm sorry. Yeah the yells that he did or the one thing that that's what I meant by his performance that turned me off a bit like, and it's not because I don't think that can work for other characters. But for the Riddler, I do not think that fits the Riddler at all. I understand its interpretation, but I felt like the subtlety he approached with everything else was fantastic. I mean, the look, he gives Batman with the coffee cup on his head smashed down on the counter like that silent just like I know, I've one kind of look like that's that. That's what I expect from the real and that look, he's actually creepy. It's frightening because you know, something's going on. But he has this look like he's already won, and he doesn't even care these being arrested. And that should terrify you because it means something's happening and you don't understand what it is right? And that's very Riddler to me. So those moments just kind of felt like when he's Oh, you know, I've just like this is a different character that's suddenly here momentarily. Like, for me like, and that's what I meant by to me the performance helpful, too uneven. And as a director, I would have tweaked those things I would have been like, don't hate it. But let's let's try something else with that, because I just feel like it doesn't fit the character as much. But yeah, but I think he's the perfect choice for the Riddler because like the scenes that he knocks he knocks out of the fucking Park and I'm like, I 100% know why they casted him. He's great. Like, you know what I mean? He's a great actor. So yeah,

26:39  
that's super valid. It worked for me only for a couple reasons. One, something we don't find out till later. I think the way that scene starts off the interrogation scene he gets, you know, he turns himself in. Yeah, seven. You know, there's a bigger plan in the background. Well, they

26:53  
they find him but it's almost like he was ready to be found right? Because he's waiting for them at the diner.

26:57  
So right like he's walked in with bloody hands. Yeah, what's the reason it worked for me is because hey, first off, I love the way that scene starts because I do like actually pretty convinced that he knew that Batman was Bruce Wayne. Me too. That was the movie like you're seeing Bruce Wayne at the crime scene. I'm like, How the fuck doesn't everybody know? Yeah. Like yeah,

27:25  
okay, don't get started. You're the one that likes Superman. And the fact that everyone doesn't know that he's Clark Kent. It's ridiculous.

27:33  
But they actually they made it clear they they gave it like a really believable reason and they even tricked me as an audience member I was like, wow, Batman is getting like uncounseled and like the first Yeah, it's gonna be like an Ironman situation was going on here. But he doesn't he is targeting Bruce Wayne and that's why his pictures are kind of out. Yeah, and I was like, that

27:51  
was me. I like I love that actually.

27:55  
Yeah, I love that to him yelling didn't upset me because or not upsetting me but it didn't like bother me because it was in the middle of kind of his breakdown when his plan was falling apart.

28:06  
But he also did it he also did it in the messages though. He did oh yeah. He did it a few times when he's giving the video the notice feature like like there are times where he just yeah and he like It's like his I just don't want to do that now just

28:21  
like but I actually kind of loved his disappointment when he I like recognized that they weren't fighting for the same thing because even when it comes down to the end, and it comes full circle and we're joking like this he know his name is Batman and this entire time. James, what's up and it's true. You're not wrong. At the end when he's fighting some Riddler, goon they were you know, there's this scene where he like beats the shit out of this guy. Oh, yeah. smashes his face, and they pull the mask off. And you know, he's like, Who are you supposed to be? The guy says I'm vengeance and like, you literally see Rob battens and you see it in his face. He was like, oh, Dick. Yeah. So yeah, I thought with that kind of turn of events and made sense that the Riddler would think we're doing the same thing here like we're battling. I'd like go yes. You know what I mean? I like

29:15  
the story of that scene. I like like I said, the only thing I had an issue that took me out of it a bit was the yelling part of the performance just because of how the yelling appeared and how it happened. It just, it just felt off putting to me and just didn't seem to fit the character. I love the overall scene. I think the scene was good. I think the motivations were good. I think that I agree. Like I love the scene with the reveal where he talks about Bruce when you realize oh, he doesn't know who he is. And I also I also love the moment when he realizes like his disappointment he's just like no no, no you know like I like that it's so yeah, like I don't just like the seen it like I said it's it's small. That's why it was hard for me to that's why I think even in my review, I put him in the questionable side. Because like he there was nothing about him. That was bad. He's fantastic for the most part it's just these small little things that don't feel very Riddler to me. Like so it's like it takes me out of the character for a moment but then they bring me back in but I'd rather not be taken out of it at all. Like, you know, like with Heath Ledger's performance I was there the whole time. And I would also say the same thing happened whether you liked it or not. And Batman Begins Cillian Murphy the Scarecrow, I am there every scene he's in like, he's so great, like, even his character without the mask when he's in the trim. It's like who, who was here, the bat man like the way he does it. He's so great. Like, he's like, you know, I love that, you know, like, and I felt like that's a great choice for that character. You know, I like so I think Paul Daniels a great choice because the parts that were good were so good, you know? Yeah. And as far as character reveals, I'm with you like the reveal of of Riddler at the beginning of that film was so great. It's so similar.

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